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@RemixedCat wrote:
windows server 2008 R1 release date: February 4th RTM/February 27th,2008 Retail
windows server 2008 R2 release date: July 22, 2009 RTM/October 22nd,2009 Retailwow not much apart.
Well, as I said, just about about 2 years.
Although, that really is not the best way to gauge how far a product has come, as the release dates do not necessarily reflect the development cycles.
I think they could have done better with R2 and added more recovery options. R1 doesn’t have them ether.
Well. It is a server OS.
I think the recovery options are quite good considering.
I once had a system_service_exception error BSOD (from a bad driver) and it was unrecoverable. I had to reformat and reinstall. It was a pain. I couldn’t even get into safe mode to recover it.
A single bad driver fried your system? That seems like a bit of a stretch….
I wish that there was a way to reset services or have a recovery mode to fix the problems. Or at least make it so we can access safe mode!
If they would make more self healing features and would have delayed the release date till Q1/2010 it would have been more feasible for me.
You have a great deal of control via the command line, and you can still access safe mode.
All operating systems are currently a ways off from self healing in any true sense, although the next gen file systems will help with this.
If R2 was, in fact a more hardened OS You think that by now even at R1 they would have had more self healing features. That would have been a real nail in the coffin for linux. at least linux is more recoverable.
Linux more recoverable? I would say they are quite close.
I’m not sure why you don’t think R2 is a less hardened OS…it most certainly is, and isn’t just the rushjob you implied it was earlier.
I also don’t know why selfhealing should be a measure of how hard an OS is…it can be useful, but is in no way a priority.
JonusC,
I would not consider OS X to be in the market in any serious capacity anymore. A lot of the multimedia stuff has moved to Windows, and OS X is pretty much for the people who prefer the brand. That’s it.
RC,
Vista came out in 2006, and 7 in 2009.
7 is not simply based on Vista, was not rushed out, and adds substantial features and improvements.
One of the biggest differences between 7 and Vista is the improved SuperFetch….they really improved the tech quite a lot.
R1 came out quite a bit later than Vista, but still just about 2 years before R2. I would say that R2 has substantial advantages in the server space, but it is heavily dependant on your needs and configuration.
For a workstation, R2, being based on 7, is much smoother and faster, and simply more efficient. The UI changes(and this is all they are..changes, not features being removed) does not worry me, because I deal with many different environment almost daily. Gnome, Flux, KDE, OS X etc…
I agree the missing features are a shame, but I would rather they take the time to perfect them, then ship it out just to meet a deadline.
Just a note, but have the legalities been considered?
Windows 7 actually includes a license to use a copy of XP for xpm…this is not so for R2…..
@RemixedCat wrote:
Oh and JF-I have a little word of advice-Just becuase someone does not speak on these forums very articulately and writes a novel on how windows 7 is the god OS does not mean they are not technical or stupid. OK! If you are here on a server forum telling us that windows 7 should be used over R1/R2 then you should not be here. Go to a windows 7 forums and gloat there and stuff. You came here and questioned us using R1/R2.
I’m surprised I’m responding to you at all, since you were completely uncivil and insulting, and brought down the whole discussion, but OK.
You’re putting words into my mouth again. Please stop doing that.
I have never said Windows 7 is the god OS or any such nonsense.
What I have said, is that there is no technical/functional reason to use R1 over 7, and that remains true.
I never once implied you were stupid, but you certainly are not very technical. After your insults, I read through some of your other posts. You have spread quite a bit of misinformation, and have a poor understanding of some things.
This is not an insult or an assumption, but going directly by your posts on this board.
I started this discussion wanting technical functional reasons. You replied with a heap of trash that you could not back up, no matter how many times I asked you to clarify or expand on points.
Three other posts showed you were mistaken, and you don’t respond, you simply go ‘meh’.
That, is, frustrating.
I have no problems with R2 personally I like how fast it is and the general performance, however I was just stating that many convenience features were removed.
They are not gone, they have changed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did you miss people pointing that out to you?
Some of the features you mentioned, such as the network activity basis, did not even have a basis to begin with!
if someone stole your icemaker from your fridge would you be mad? I would!
If someone replaced my square icemaker on the left of my fridge with a better circle icemaker on the right of my fridge, I might be confused and dismayed at first, but I would get used to it and maybe even like it better.
I am sticking with R1 out of the sake of some software not working becuase of removed DLL files and also the loss of the features I mentioned, yes I could live without them, however it would just be a pain for me to go out of my way and reformat my hard drive and go with another slightly better OS. I would only do it if it were major and absolutely needed.
Due to some software not working is the first real reason you’ve given so far. It would be interesting to see what software it was, and why it was not running, but that is another topic.
Can you just answer my one question? What features of R1 do you use, that are specific to R1? Lets pretend Windows 7 had all the same features in the UI as vista had, and just “under the hood” was different.
Would you still stick with R1? Why?
JonusC,
Would you agree there is no technical advantage to staying with R1 over 7? Ignoring things like price, “everything currently working”, etc…
9th November 2009 at 02:50 in reply to: What are the advantages of using R2 as a workstation? #49971Well, it depends.
With Windows 2003 server, it was a much better choice than XP for users of 2000. It was faster(newer kernel, some extra technologies), minimal, lean, and without all the fisher price trash.
With Windows 2008 R1, it was aain slightly newer than Vista, and had many of the same advantages, albeit to a lesser extent.
With R2, it is on par with with Windows 7. For desktop use, the performance etc is not significantly different, and 7 is in most cases better suited for desktop use, having features like Superfetch and such.
One of the main reasons to use a server os these days is to learn, e.g. to play with active directory and domains and such, or to use hyperv, or whichever.
Some people insist on using a server OS over 7 without any good reason. They are the type of people who think running a 32bit os on a 64bit cpu is unstable, or that 7 is a step backwards from vista. Mostly, these people just like to be different, and have no technical understanding or basis.
You should look at your needs, and if the features of R2 would suit you, or if you would not otherwise gain anything. Don’t just run one “just to be different”, because it is truly pointless.
Revenge of the sith, left 4 dead 2, stalker and prototype all work fine in r1 and r2.
Jesus christ.
I have asked you for clarifications at every stage, and have only gone by things you have written.
You’re the one who makes assumptions, e.g.
@RemixedCat wrote:
Also , indrek you sound like you don’t multitask much. You prolly don’t have much explorer windows open to care or don’t use grouping.
Asking you to clarify your points, or pointing out that you are wrong, is not trolling.
If you can’t handle people disagreeing with you, and if you only get angry when people point out that you’re wrong, or that you can’t support your points, maybe forums are not the place for you.
I was interested in a purely technical/functional discussion, and you have almost completely destroyed by spreading FUD about 7/R2. Thanks.
@RemixedCat wrote:
I am extremely technical! I am sick to bloody death of your assumptions.
Assumptions? I am going purely by the information you have presented.
Your assumptions about 7/R2 were incorrect, as people have pointed out in this thread. Your understanding of managed code was incorrect. You were unable to get audio working on Linux to the same extent as you had in Windows, when it is possible, without using specific players.
I’m not assuming anything, I’m going purely by the things you have said on this board. If you like, I can find the quotes that demonstrate that you don’t have a good tech understanding of things.
In any case, I’m glad to see the discussion served a purpose, and that there are indeed no technical or functional advantages to remaining with R1/Vista.
I am fully aware of manged code and midori. managed code keeps your system clean becuase of cleans out memory. That is why It is faster. java is manged code and it is much faster then C++ becuase it cleans out memory and stuff like that. And you saying it is slower is stupid.
MS needs midori since the windows stack has been even claimed by MS to be unwieldy and unmanageable now. I have even heard this at 3 MS conferences I’ve been to. They can only add new features and play around with it, but to do drastic rebuilds of core features would be drastic and extremely undesirable for them. That is why they are developing midori, to address the complaints that people have about MS OSes bloating and taking up too much memory. They are also building it from the ground up to be managed and secure, since applications run in sandboxed modes so they cannot interferre with eachother. This would make it much more secure and less bloated. Why would you NOT want such an OS?
sigh.
And you wonder why you don’t seem technical?
The complains people have about MS OS’es bloating are completely unjustified, and not based on any technical reasons at all.
You’re also quite incorrect that the Windows stack is limited and can not be extended. I would be curious if your could give a source, backing up your claim.
I still can’t see why you are against midori and claim that it will be slow becuase it runs on managed code.
You are putting words into my mouth.
Where have I said this?
i would love to have managed code so that way If I load up tons of applications and multitask alot I don’t have to worry about memory and disk management. i can sit back and not be a memory nazi like I have to with windows.
WTF?
Again, you wonder why you don’t seem overly technical?
Hint: Even if the OS is managed code(which it won’t be…perhaps the userspace will be), the applications will still be seperate, and will still use differing amounts of memory.
You don’t seem to fully understand that Microsoft were developing Midori as a research project, and it will definitily not be the next version of Windows. You also seem to have a poor understandaing of Managed code, and seem to be imagaing it will solve all your problems, when this is simply not the case.
Accuse me of assumptions all you want, but I am going ONLY by what you have stated on this board, and I have asked you for sources/clarifications several times, which you ignore.
@RemixedCat wrote:
jingofresh! I am tired of talking about this! 😆 😆 😆
Well, I think it is an interesting topic, and I would still appreicate your responses.
Every reason you gave for keeping r1 over 7 has been shown to be subjective, and all the features you need indeed exist in 7.
Can we agree then, that there is no technical or functional basis for using r1 over 7, and people who do are simply more comfortable with it?
but I will say that I have tried everything in linux to get the sound working right. I know what modules to load JF I am not stupid. I loaded the right ones, had my sound ok, but it just did not work as well as it did in windows. windows had the full surround sound and everything works fine. I am working it well in R1 as we speak and I can even use the 3d sound capabilities that make stereo sounds sound like virtual surround since my card has DSPs. I cannot even come close to this in linux unless I use the dated XMMS player or use Kaffene or XINE. I know my stuff about linux.
I did not mean to imply you are stupid.
You don’t seem to be overly technical though, given your comments in this thread, and your lack of understand of Midori/Managed code.
The audio problems you describe…, yes, that is part of what I was getting at of sound being a mess. Pulseaudio can actually do everything you require, including 3d and stero sound etc, although it can be an amazing pain to setup and work correctly.
And before you say “aww why are you using windows and not linux then if you want your configurability?”—simple! I need applications that are windows only and the state of linux and the community is really bad all it is is fanbois and flamers and masochists.
I would never say that. I know all too well Linux is not ready for the desktop, and especially not for multimedia stuff, which is your profession IIRC.
What I would say, is why use an OS like R1 that is dated and not letting you get the most out of your hardware, when 7 would suit you so much better.
*shrug*
I am also appaled at people who just accept stuff as it is instead of trying to change things and just sucking up. Like the people who blog about the world’s problems but don’t try to make thier lives better and help the situation. That’s what makes the people on digg just tinfoil hat basement babies.
A lot of blogging can be important..highlighting issues and raising awareness. Sometimes people are not able to inflict change…or perhaps they wish to do so by writing.
I agree, Digg is indeed full of babies though.
@JonusC wrote:
And AFAIK I cannot delete C:/Windows, can I?
That’s a little insulting. You sound like one of these Linux fanboys who wants a feature to be available, despite it being 10000000% useless – its just the fact that you can’t do it, and so you complain about Windows being sandboxed. With that said, yes you can as long as you take ownership of the folder (well you could in Vista anyway).
You would run into problems rm -rf’ing /lib on a linux system as well, due to the basic utilities not running without the libaries they need. Most systems will run into problems if you try and delete the system files, and most won’t let you if the files are in use.
@JonusC wrote:
…it’s not on the status bar, like it was with Vista and XP, and I have to make another click just to see the sum of all the KB’s that are already counted in the column. Clicking ‘Show more details’ thrashes the HDD when they files are big (and the folder isn’t indexed), so it obviously triggers a re-count. If there is a reg tweak or g.p. setting I’d love to know it… I’m still due to finish the mapping of Vista and XP registry hives…
Ahh.
No, I know of no way to change that.
I usually just use the tooltip or right click properties when I want toal sizes…the tooltip option works quite fine IMO…
EDIT: Wow, Server 2008 R2 is faster than 7… I think I’m going to keep Aero on, it’s actually not sluggish after installing all my usual shell hook programs 😀
You should *always* keep aero on.
It offloads work to the GPU, so even if you don’t like all the new featres, you can disable them, but you should still keep aero on for better performance.
I think I will. But tell me, it’s not another VLC is it? I could never get DXVA-accelerated WMV and MPEG-4/AVC acceleration in that (i.e. GPU accelerated HiDef).
Nope, quite different. I found it in 2002 when looking for a media player for Linux, and it was so very simple and powerful. It’s a bit of an opposite of VLC…because it is just a movie player. In fact, when I did not have a computer for a few years, I used to carry it around with me on a usb stick. It is a single exe file that includes all codes, and you could just drop movies onto it and control with the keyboard.
smplayer just adds a gui and config options and such…it is the best video player, no doubt about it IMO.
RemixedCat, can you please reply to the other posts by myself, JonusC and Indrek? We have all pointed out the features you felt were lacking from 7 are in fact not so, so I would still like to know your reasoning.
@RemixedCat wrote:
Yesh linux has alot of problems with sound! I still cannot get any multichannel working on my creative soundcard in debian and ubuntu!
If you were unable to get sound working in ubuntu, whatever were you doing with Gentoo?
Anyway, sound is indeed a bit of a mess at the moment, with pulse, oss and alsa, but your card is more than likely supported, and you just had to know which module to load.
I have tested 7 it was the build right before RTM and ran it off vm and I did not care for it as much as R2.
They have the same interface. Did you like R2 better “just because it was different”? I don’t mean to sound snarky…but what stuff from R2 did you use that was not in 7?
man to have the hacks to make it even more feature full in R2 would totally make my day.
You only really mean superfetch, right? In whihc case use 7, because there is little difference perfromance wise, otherwise.
the reason I use WMP is becuase it integrates very well with my sansa fuze. other players always screw up the playlists and I like only messing with one program to play and manage music..
There are various other players out there that rely on WMP, and so will be just as compatible, while having a completely different interface and featureset.
@RemixedCat wrote:
this is why I am really irritated at the way some people don’t think about people like me and there’s alot of people like me who are photophobic. Its sad really they only keep the mainstream people in mind and never think of anything outside the box.
It has nothing to do with thinking outside the box, it just does not make sense to cater to light sensitive people when they are maybe 1% of the userbase.
You have access to the color settings, and can adjust this as you like…, it’s not really an issue.
@JonusC wrote:
Having that one shortcut is a lot easier than clicking around the GUI many times 😉
Ahh, fair enough 🙂
EDIT: For some reason I can’t enable the Power icon in my Notification Area. And when I go to Power in C.P., I have to click “Change settings that are currently unavailable” because the plans are greyed-out. WTF? UAC prevents changing power plans? You’ve got to be kidding me… Have I missed something? I only installed 2008 R2 within the past 24 hours. And yes I do have Sleep working on the Security Screen.
Yes, it is indeed restricted for normal uses. I do wonder why this is…, but you can easily add the right to your normal user account with a few group policy changes.
What I ment was, if I select 1000+ (or whatever) files of many types in one folder, in Vista and XP it will say “523 MB total” in the status bar straight away. In Windows 7, it doesn’t.
I can’t recall exactly, but this can definitely be changed by a registry setting.
Or do you mean not having to click the show more details part?
And MPlayerC was always Aero transparent, even on the old release before stated it was Vista compatible, since it appears to use standard Win32 window drawing (it is developed in Visual C++ AFAIK).
Ahh, I thought you were talking about a variant of mplayer, but you meant mplayerc. I’m just more used to seeing it written as MPC. mplayer/smplayer is quite a different beast, which you may also want to check out. It’s quite a bit more configurable and handy then MPC.
@JingoFresh wrote:
I actually have no time for Linux these days, always working… I tried booting in the other day, and was slightly overwhelmed… so I’m more of an ex-slacker i guess, not out of choice but by lack of time 🙁
I still need a *nix for a lot of network auditing and security stuff…and prefer it for some programming stuff.
Slack 64 and R2…best of both worlds :>
JC,
Just three points to your post.
You don’t need to use batch script or go to control panel to switch power plans. I do this often just from clicking the power icon.
The show more details behavior can be configured as you like. It’s not a step back from Vista.
the screensaver being aware of mplayer. This is depednant on what driver mplayer is using. I use smplayer myself, and with the direct3d driver(to get aero transparency), it works fine.
(slack user here as well :> )
@RemixedCat wrote:
Ok the UI features that I DID indicate were lost convenience features that are time savers.
No, you gave a list of the things that had changed in 7. That is not to say the features are not present in some form, or have an equivalent.
Do you like having to right click on a folder and go to properties just to see if it is shared?
As Indrek pointed out, this information is present in the status. Also hovering over the folder will show you.
do you like not having the network icon let you know whether you have local only access, or internet access or not at all-or would you just like a worthless icon that does not indicate the state of the network?
See, this is an example of you not understanding the changes, and so assuming a feature was removed, when this is not the case.
Again, as Indrek points out, the new display is more than useful. There will be a yellow triangle if there is a problem, and different icons for local and internet access.
The activity animation you refer to was actually useless, as far as accuracy went. It was never a representation of actual network activity, nor was it meant to be.
would you also not like having quick controls for managing power plans on your laptop, instead, having to go to the control panel all the way there and selecting only two power plans instead of the hidden “high performance” plan?
Have you actually used 7?
I run R2 on a laptop, where the power managment is exactly the same as 7’s, and can easily change plans by clicking on the battery/plug icon.
would you not like to know how many windows explorer windows are open?
Errr.
Are you referring to the fact you can’t group applications anymore?
In any case, hovering above any explorer window in the taskbar will show you all open windows…which if anything, is more useful.
As I said, have you actually used 7?
would you like to have the name of the song pop up in the miniplayer as well as having seek controls and volume, etc? or just some dumbed down thumbnail with just next and prev buttons?
That has nothing to do with Windows, per se.
You are free to use any media player you like, even an older version of WMP.
Is this really a reason to remain with Vista?
or status bar not really showing status? or rather a generic “working” with thinking going on?
What do you mean here?
@RemixedCat wrote:
using windows 7 is like living in a tract home. everyon’e got the same thing.
Um.
So, you’re using R1 “just to be different”? Well…, if that is your reasoning and basis, so be it.
I started the thread wondering about technical/empiracl reasons, and so far there are none…as expeced.
Also, I think you underestimate the configurability and extent to which you can theme 7.
Just like people who don’t use the EQ in WMP 12 becuase they cant find it. MS assumes that people just listen to music on a flat eq. but flat eq is like spagetti without cheese! you gotta go through 3 steps to get to the Eq in WMP12.
Again, this has nothing to do with Windows.
also the look of it is just boring. I’ve seen office applications edgier looking.
Really? Which office applications?
Wordpress, Wordstar, OO.org, Abiword, KOffice, Lotus…none of them look particular edgy…
In any event, as I said, 7 is remarkably configurable and themable.
Also , indrek you sound like you don’t multitask much. You prolly don’t have much explorer windows open to care or don’t use grouping.
Or….because there is an equivalent feature in 7.
You either have not tried it, or could not get used to it. Which is fair enough, but don’t claim 7 is less functional.
Most light computer users are ok with the changes, but us hardcore users hate the changes. Just like the people who never paint the walls in thier house and just kep them white and boring.
In all seriousness, in what way are you a hardcore user? You are actively resisting a much improved version of your OS, because you can’t adapt to the new UI changes. You are not getting the most out of your hardware, and appear to be running a server OS “just to be different”.
I’m also curious, what aspects of the server OS do you use? I.E., what features unique to the server OS do you make use of?
@RemixedCat wrote:
I do have one question….
if you have more then 5 browser tabs open on IE8 in 7/R2 (the taskbar pops up thumbnails of browser tabs open in IE8) does it not show the rest? it would be a HUGE problem for people like me who often have more then 10 tabs open the HUGE amount of thumbnails open would drastically stall the computer. I never tested it much in R2 becuase I just tested gaming performance and never messed with the internet since it was on an unprotected and unconnected machine at someone else’s house.
I just hope it truncates tabs becuase that would be hell in a handbag. imagine loading 20 thumbnails on the taskbar! ouch!
R2 is quite well protected by default.
As for your question, I think xxcom is right, and it depends on your resolution.
I just tested in 1680×1050 and it will show thumbnails for 13, after which it lists them, the same as if you were using grouping.
@JonusC wrote:
Maybe I’ll head over to an Ubuntu forum now and ask them something like – how do I use my computer as ‘root’ all the time? I don’t want any of these so-called “SECURITY PRECAUTIONS” in place from now fancy-pants “KERNEL PROGRAMMER” who thinks he knows what I’m free to do and not to do on my computer!!:
A slightly OT note, but I do indeed hate the Ubuntu approach of get rid of root. I’m all for advocating the approach they have by default, but banning or refusing to tell people how to enable root on their forums is going a bit too far.
@Sevener wrote:
This statement is NOT TRUE.
Windows is NOT Linux.
Unlike Linux root, Windows Administrator is not able to do ANYTHING. I won’t go deep into technical details, but this is just how Windows works.@JonusC wrote:
Please, do go deeper into technicals for the sake of backing up your claim. Name ONE Win32 application that requires higher privledges than Administrator – apart from standard TrustedInstaller calls of course (such as those that install new drivers or kernel stacks, that are built with trusted/signed INF’s and certificates via standard methods in Windows development).
JingoFresh is correct, but feel free to refute him/me when you actually find some proof and we can talk more on it.
I assume Sevener is talking about the fact that unlike root, the Administrator account is not the most powerful. Although, saying that the Administrator can’t do anything is by far an exaggeration.
While it is true that there are higher privilege accounts than Administrator, these are never designed to be used by users, and are internal to Windows. It also is in no way a problem, and you don’t gain anything by trying to make your account a member of the same group as the System account.
Sevener, the reason you could not end your antivirus, is because it is a trashy program that does indeed run as System. If you look at the vulnerability history for that program, you will probably find running that software leads to a decrease in security, rather than an increase.
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